DSC09126 knolly endorphin Emma
Review

Knolly Endorphin MX29

Photos Deniz Merdano
Reading time

It has been almost 5 months since I picked up a new and improved Knolly Endorphin test bike. A first look article was already published with spec details and a first impression here. I rode this bike through some very awful autumn conditions and then into a typical rainy BC winter. My home trails are on the North Shore, but I managed to take this bike on multiple rides throughout the Sea to Sky region.

There was no shortage of compliments coming from those who noticed the updated frame design. It's impressive how a straight top tube can completely change the look of a bike. The Seafoam green is eye catching and really accentuates the beautiful and delicate details of the frame.

It took a while for me to wrap my head around this bike and its true intention. Because the Endorphin is essentially two different bikes, but also … not? The two build options have different front wheel sizes, which is the opposite of what we normally see for bikes running different wheel sizes. The change in front wheel size is accompanied by a significant change in fork size, giving the two builds a variance of 20mm in travel.

So how can two bikes with so many differences be considered and marketed as the same bike. When I asked Noel Buckley what other model out there he would compare this new Endorphin to, he had a hard time answering. It led me to realize Noel doesn't want this bike, or any of his bikes, to be limited by a certain label, and especially not by the size of the fork.


At its core, the new Endorphin is a trail bike that ranges in travel from 140-160mm in the front and 135mm-150mm in the rear, and comes in both MX and full 27.5" options. - From Emma's First Impressions
DSC09171 knolly endorphin Emma

Some massive updates to the new design are welcomed by most. Highlights include a straight top tube, Enduro bearings on all pivots and a one piece link that drives the shock.

Sizing & Fit

I tested the Endorphin XT|MX29 build in size small. I graduated from full 27.5" bikes a while ago, but I appreciate and understand that there is still a place for them in the market. According to the website, they technically recommend a size x-small for a 5'2" fun-sized person. In my first article, I mentioned that I felt the 440mm reach was long, particularly when climbing, and had been compensating for that by slamming the saddle forward.

I did not take Knolly up on their offer to test the x-small as I was comfortable and enjoying the bike on the descents. I wasn’t having any issues getting my weight over the bars but I was feeling slightly unstable at higher speeds, so I figured shortening the wheelbase would have amplified that further. The size small and x-small have the same chainstay lengths, but a 29mm difference in wheelbase and a 25mm difference in reach. Those differences are not insignificant for a smaller rider and definitely something to consider when looking at the fit of the bike.

After riding the bike longer, I am confident in my decision to stay with the size small but do wonder what the climbing comfort would have been like on the x-small.

DSC09095 knolly endorphin Emma

The Endorphin is comfortable in this rocky, playful terrain

Suspension & Settings

There are many different suspensions designs out there, but none like Knolly's Fourby4 design. The linkage is designed to deliver an optimal balance between pedaling efficiency, traction and bump absorption. At first bounce, I quickly realized I've never experienced a suspension that is as plush as this one.

I did have to play around with the settings a decent amount for the ride to feel comfortable. It's a more active suspension than I am used to and I noticed it right away on the climbs, as I bobbed my way up the road. Firming up the LSC close to its max and increasing the PSI helped. This came at the expense of some small bump sensitivity but it was worthwhile nonetheless.

I struggled more with the fork. It was my first time on a Fox 34 and it is certainly less forgiving on the North Shore than a Fox 36. The fork felt nervous and was not particularly confidence inspiring in technical and fast terrain. The front and rear end almost felt like opposites which made it difficult to predict how the bike would react from one section of trail to the next. I ended up with a fully open rebound on the fork, something I hear is relatively normal but it doesn't leave room for any adjustments if needed.

Float X

  • PSI: 146psi 27% sag
  • LSC: 10 out
  • Rebound: 9-11 (weather dependent)

Fox 34

  • PSI: 62psi with 2 spacers for 25% sag
  • LSC: 12 out
  • HSC: 6 out
  • LSR: 14 fully open
  • HSR: 7 out
DSC09163 knolly endorphin Emma

Either side internal cable routing is clean, and let's take a minute to appreciate those welds...

DSC09169 knolly endorphin Emma

A nice reminder. Have you had your daily DOSE?

Climbing

My daily driver (Stumpy Evo) has a shorter reach with a less active suspension that I really enjoy climbing on and rarely feel the need to lock out. The Knolly's active suspension had me feeling like I was sitting deeper in the travel and thus even further away from the bars. The lock out was almost mandatory for any road climbs just to reduce bobbing and improve the power transfer but I kept it unlocked on technical or loose gravel climbing.

I enjoyed the technical climbs on this bike more than road climbs as this is where that suspension system thrives most. No matter the condition, the wheels stay planted. I was floating up sections I usually have to work hard for, especially in slippery conditions. Climbing steep gravel sections was also noticeably more enjoyable and I felt I could be less calculated with my line choice, and confident that the bike would make it over loose rocks and chunder – a bonus for those who live near a lot of gravel road climbs.

DSC09145 knolly endorphin Emma

Seated or standing, the Endorphin climbed up most obstacles with ease

While the traction and active suspension is a significant bonus, I wouldn't describe climbing on the Endorphin as particularly biomechanically efficient. An effective seat tube angle of 76 degrees is nothing crazy but I found the power transfer less than expected. As I was climbing and going through the travel, I felt like I was sitting way behind the bottom bracket. On top of that, the Endorphin is not light so it doesn't have that sprightly feel I was expecting from a short travel bike. Longer rides with significant elevation gain definitely had me worked.

I like comparing the climbing experience to a diesel engine – a bit slower to respond to an acceleration but steady and planted once moving.

DSC09071 knolly endorphin Emma

The extra traction was welcomed when riding through leftover snow patches.

Descending

Riding my way through different Shore trails had me conclude this bike is made in the rear. Bottom heavy some might say. The rear suspension is extremely active, plush and downright fun. The suspension remains active while braking, allowing for that extra traction to kick in and boost my riding confidence through the roof. The feeling of trusting that the bike will stay planted through corners is like no other.

I had the most fun on lower angle terrain that was playful with lots of line choices. Getting the bike off the ground was effortless once my settings were optimized and it responds well to firm order. The bike is super playful when riding smoother terrain and with the 701mm stand over height there was plenty of room to freely maneuver it under me when riding.

I had to be more deliberate about line choices when the terrain became technical and with steeper terrain. The geometry is there but it requires more control, finesse and calculation. I'm a fan of the mixed wheel size as it adds stability and traction in the front while keeping the rear maneuverable, something the bike certainly takes advantage of.

DSC09116 knolly endorphin Emma

The bike reacts well to playful, jumping commands

My biggest challenge was getting the bike to feel balanced in that technical and steeper terrain. I often felt unstable with the Fox 34 up front when I would get pushed off line or after a big compression. At higher speeds, it was almost like a constant party in the back with strict business only up front. I don't particularly enjoy having to tone down my riding, especially when the rear end bike is egging me on. The rear of the bike is very confidence inspiring for only 135mm of travel and I certainly got carried away a few times with some close calls. The bike is clearly capable of more and I can only imagine what it bike feels like with a more capable Fox 36/Lyrik or equivalent.

Neutral VS Slack mode

The slacker setting decreases the head tube angle by half a degree and the bottom bracket height by 10mm. It also decreases the effective seat tube angle by half a degree. I don't have much to say about the two settings except that I mostly rode in neutral. I didn’t feel enough benefit descending in the slacker mode to outweigh any added hinderance on the climbs. You can also argue that both ways, so maybe it's all in my head. Regardless, it is a small change that is available if you want it.

Technicalities & Value

The bike caused me no mechanical problems and the XT build was more than enjoyable to ride coming from a SRAM gal. I took the linkage apart and can confirm there are indeed no bushings hidden in there. As someone who has stripped and broken too many bolts (hehe) the titanium bolts are a damn luxury. Take my money.

I can also confirm that putting the fourby4 suspension linkage back together is no walk in the park. There are a lot of pieces and some of the bearings on the pre-production frame weren't flush, so getting the axels back in required some mallet action. More links means more parts that need to be replaced at regular intervals. Something to consider if you live in an element heavy area.

Number-wise, the geometry is in the pocket for someone to have fun on all types of trails with enough versatility to customize if necessary. The frame quality and workmanship is up there for Knolly standards and that is factored into the price. While I have no complaints with the XT build, I feel the 7,299 CAD price point is steep. Even the Deore build is hefty for 5,999 CAD. Comparing to a Norco Fluid FS A1 XT, fox 34 factory for 4,999 CAD, or a Santa Cruz 5010 R build for 6,349 CAD. You are paying for that fresh design, premium aluminum frame and the patented fourby4 suspension and straight seat tube.

Pricing

  • Full 27.5 Deore - 5,599 CAD / 4,199 USD
  • MX Deore - 5,999 CAD / 4,499 USD
  • MX XT - 7,299CAD / 5,499 USD

Spec.

The bike I was given is the full XT mullet in size small with a different cockpit and wheels than what will come stock. Specs are below:

  • Fork: Fox 34 Factory 140mm
  • Shock: Fox Float X Factory 135mm
  • Brakes: Shimano XT 8120 with 203/180mm rotors
  • Seat Post: SDG Tellis 170mm
  • *Saddle: SDG Bel-Air V3
  • Drive Train: Shimano XT 12 spd 10-51T (30T chain ring)
  • *Wheels: DT Swiss M1900 29" front (15x110) 27.5" rear (12x157MS)
  • Front Tire: Maxxis Assegai 29" x 2.5" MaxxGrip EXO+
  • Rear Tire: Maxxis DHR II 27.5 x 2.4" MaxxTerra EXO+
  • *Stem: Spank Split 50
  • *Handlebar: Spank Oozy 800
  • *Grips: Spank Spoon

*Products not to spec on the bike in photos

Endorphin Build kits
DSC08980 knolly endorphin Emma

A good shot to illustrate how far away the seat is from my body. That's a 175mm dropper.

So who is this bike for?

This bike is likely to resonate with younger and intermediate riders who prefer less technical terrain. While it can handle advanced conditions, it thrives in a more forgiving and playful environment, offering remarkable traction for both descents and climbs.

The bikes limitations start showing for stronger riders and technical/steep terrain - something I noticed quickly because of the my trail choices. A 140mm Fox 34 is at the very end of its potential travel range where the next step would be to move to a 150mm Fox 36. Comparing this to the shock, the spec'd 135mm factory float X is at the very beginning of its travel range. So with the fork and shock overlapping and the opposite ends of their potential use purpose range, it has me question why the MX29 build wasn’t also just spec'd with a Fox 36.

I believe a bike should be ridden as intended and the model's ability to adapt to various categories without clear focus can pose some geometry challenges and undoubtedly alter its balance. At the end of the day, it really depends what you seek from a bike and what terrain you will ride it on.

DSC09157 knolly endorphin Emma

Conclusion

In spite of its quirks, this bike is designed specifically for small riders with smaller inseams, addressing a notable gap in the industry. Within a realm that is untouched, they have managed to also offer a bike with substantial versatility. Hate it or love it, Knolly remains true to its unconventional approach. As for the bike's intention, maybe it will just live in its own category of shapeshifting short travel bikes for fun-sized humans.

Related Stories

Trending on NSMB

Comments

knollybikes.com
+14 DanL Velocipedestrian Niels van Kampenhout mutton Pete Roggeman Andy Eunson Curveball Blofeld Emma Le Rossignol itsky21 IslandLife Carlos Matutes AlanB Hardlylikely

I'm always a little hesitant to jump into active conversations regarding reviews of our products, but here goes :)

Firstly, thank you to NSMB and Emma for taking the time and effort to write this review. We love the honesty that NSMB prides themselves on and the fact that they test product on some of the most difficult terrain around, often in less-than-ideal conditions.

I wanted to take a bit of time to clear up the intended use of the new Endorphin. This is actually the 4th version of the Endorphin in Knolly's history: the other three being 26", 26" and 27.5". All previous three models were general purpose trail bikes: the new Endorphin is a bit different...

Knolly is a niche company and the new Endorphin is a niche bike: so it's a niche within a niche. It's also the first of our so called "Gen 6 Bikes" to be launched and the first fully new full suspension bike that we've launched in a few years, given the insane lead times affecting the bike industry during the Covid Pandemic from early 2020 to late 2022, followed by the bottom dropping out of the market during 2023. So, we're very, very excited to bring this bike (and subsequent models) to market.

Because it's our first new model in a while, there is understandably a fair bit of interest in it. Customers are looking at this bike as a possible upgrade for their current bikes and of course the fact that we've made significant aesthetic improvements, isn't hurting interest either.

However, the Endorphin is not a replacement for a Fugitive, Chilcotin or even a Warden. The new 4th version of the Endorphin is a departure from our earlier trail bikes and it's focused on two trail market segments: one is fitting smaller riders while offering full features currently not present in most smaller frames: full size reservoir shocks, water bottle placement in the front triangle, insanely good dropper post clearance (like 200mm droppers for customers who are 5'1" tall) and a up to a decent amount of travel for a smaller rider in a trail bike package. Being a 27.5" rear wheeled bike, it's offered in both MX and dual 27.5” build kits: of course, there are some challenges maintaining geometry with big front wheels and long travel forks, so we suggest shrinking the fork for these MX builds.

The other segment is being a playful and fun bike: it's not designed to be the fastest climbing or descending bike.  It's just designed to be fun.

The Endorphin is versatile within its intended application niche which is technical trail. It's not designed to be a full Enduro or freeride bike. It's not designed to be a lightweight trail rig. We already make bikes for those two categories and they’re among our best selling models. The Endorphin is designed to fit a market space that is often passed over because it's a small (figuratively & literally) segment and many companies don’t see value in developing a product that requires more inventory management, more explaining its essence to the customer (both reseller and end user), and potentially a longer ROI on their investment. The beauty of being Knolly is we are self directed and we can decide to do projects like this. For sure, we’ll sell 3, 4 or 5 times as many Chilcotins as Endorphins, but I’m convinced by the end of this year, we’ll see that the Endorphin has trucked along nicely and sales will have been decent in this model. Hopefully we’ll have a bunch of happy Endorphin customers that would have be served less well by our other products.

That is the point of this bike. It’s a great do everything bike for a smaller rider, emerging youth riders leaving compromised (even if fairly costly) dedicated youth models, and the (occasional) medium or taller person who just wants a sendy, boosty, maneuverable bike that they can aggressively jump and carve with. That’s our plan anyway and existing customers seem to be pretty stoked with this approach.

If you’re looking for a similar travel bike and want a do everything trail bike, then look no further than the Fugitive. If you want a race Enduro bike, look no further than the Chilcotin, soon to be making a re-entry back into the marketplace, all spiffed up with a new look and completely new frame specifications (keep you eyes here on NSMB in the next week or two :)

Hopefully that helps describe the applications the Endorphin is designed to fit into. Suggested build specs for this bike look like this:

29” fork: 140 – 150mm

27.5” fork: 150 – 160mm

Rear travel: 135 or 150mm

There are lots of options and ways to build this bike up. We offer build kits for a few of these options, but not all. It’s a really versatile bike for a specific market segment that doesn’t normally see a lot of love.

Please let me know if any of you have questions and myself and my team will try and answer them in a timely manner over the next few days.

Cheers,

Noel

Reply

BarryW
+1 Curveball IslandLife James Hayes

Ah thanks Noel, it's nice to have you emphasize what this bike is, and what it's intent is. I can honestly say that I am going to look very hard at a Knolly for my next bike when the time comes.

Reply

Onawalk
+2 BarryW IslandLife

I swear youve been listening (reading) my endless comments about an MX version of the Fugee!  This fits my little niche requirement quite well, I only wish it was available in Tequila Sunrise.  I'm looking for a bike that I can use for coaching, and for more playful rides when I'm riding with less sendy friends.  I want something playful, confident, robust, and that can hang when I get to do a lap at lunch when my clients are enjoying a burger and beer. 

My Fugee fits most of that criteria, but I've been mullet curious for the last year to add to the fun factor.

Any other planned colourways coming available this year, or am I buying a seafoam green unit to beat up on?

Reply

knollybikes.com
+1 IslandLife

Hi Onawalk:

It's nice to hear that your Tequila Sunrise Fugitive is working well for you!  That colourway really got the attention of a lot of customers, so we're excited that you're stoked on it!

The Endorphin is pretty much as you describe :)

Current Endorphin colours are:

  1. Seafoam Green
  2. Champagne
  3. Raw

We do change up colours as you know, but Raw is almost always available because it's our single best selling colour.  We don't like to go backwards: our creative team likes to keep our colours fairly simple and fun, using high end painting processes and either solid colours or fades.  The above three colours are what we have in inventory for Endorphins for the next several months.  Beyond that, it's hard to predict as colour choices are often made later in the manufacturing process, doing what 'feels right" at the time.

Cheers,

Reply

Onawalk
0

I can only dream of Tequila sunrise rides, as I'm on a raw, 2020 Fugee.  I was very tempted to get a new Fugee frame for the Tequila sunrise colour, but I'm glad I waited.

I guess itll be raw again, or Seafoam green!

If I could make a gentle suggestion towards a Martini racing, or Lotus (Green and Gold) for future choices, I know how you guys love the racing liveries!

Reply

Emleross
+6 BarryW Pete Roggeman IslandLife mutton AlanB Lee Lau

Thanks Noel, I'm stoked to see some next gen riders on this bike! It's a more fitting and forgiving bike compared to what's out there right now for smaller & youth riders.

Reply

PaulAC
0

I enjoyed the review. Bike testing can be a finicky piece of business, dropping your riding muscle memory to find the pocket on a new rig. I have been on an Endorphin since 2011 and can say confidently those models always performed to the  standard of the very best qualities noted in the review.  Admittedly I have it dialled to a DVO  Diamond 160mm which is perfectly suited to both climbs and descents. Are there better climbers out there, more sure footed descenders... I am sure there are but true to its roots if you're looking for a grab and go, do anything, go anywhere companion...I would not hesitate. My view.

Reply

Curveball
+12 Pete Roggeman Cam McRae Graham Driedger Matt Cusanelli mutton Cooper Quinn Abies BarryW ohio IslandLife Adrian Bostock Skooks

This is one of the best reviews I have ever read. I felt like I was riding the bike myself and feeling what it was like. I really got a great sense of what the bike is like.

Reply

Emleross
+5 BarryW IslandLife a.funks mutton Lee Lau

Thank you, this article was super challenging for me to write so happy to hear my feelings were conveyable.

Reply

velocipedestrian
+5 fartymarty Allen Lloyd Curveball mutton Timer Blofeld BarryW

Yes, getting close to the limits of the fork is spooky, and really downgrades the ride. I guess they're making assumptions about how much force their perceived customer for this bike is putting through it. 

I wouldn't want to be the product manager balancing the lower weight and cost vs a burlier, more supportive 36 etc. Frame only?

Reply

Timer
+1 Velocipedestrian Andy Eunson BarryW

It seems like a strange choice for a brand like Knolly to spec a 140mm 34 on this frame. The brand most similar in spirit and origin, Banshee, has been equipping their 135mm travel frames with 150-160mm forks of the 36/Lyrik kind for ages.

Reply

straightup
+4 BarryW Cr4w mutton IslandLife

Hhhhmm, lots of koolaid drinking around here today. 

It’s a trail bike. 

Knolly literally makes this exact bike with a 36 and slightly more travel. 

It’s a preference thing.

Reply

NealWood
+3 Cr4w Curveball Skooks

The fork choice reminds me of the situation where bike manufacturers put tires on a bike that are great most places but just don't cut it where terrain is more aggressive. I'm sure there might be a lot of places a 34 is just fine.  Also as Morgan says above maybe it could be helped by playing with the stack or stem.

Reply

craw
0

This seems like the most reasonable analysis.

Reply

morgan-heater
+2 Cam McRae BarryW

I wonder if playing with stack height/stem length could have settled down the front end at all?

Reply

Sethimus
+2 Niels van Kampenhout Morgan Heater

is the fork on the upper limit or the terrain it is ridden in?

Reply

pete@nsmb.com
+2 Abies Andy Eunson

These are the existential questions to which we seek knowledge.

Reply

Curveball
+2 Timer Velocipedestrian

It seems that it might not be the best choice in relation to the capabilities of the rear suspension.

Reply

mammal
0

I'm assuming you missed an "f" in the front of "or", then the question makes more sense. If that's the case, I think the answer is yes.

Reply

andy-eunson
+1 Curveball

I think you’re right about the fork. A better choice would be a 36 or similar with more travel.  I also tend to chose the larger size than recommended by manufacturers. Usually the size charts put me on a small for my 164 height but I find the actual top tube far too short. My knees will get too close to my grips on tight uphill corners. That’s caused by the steep seat tube angles pushing top tubes to be shorter in a given size.

Reply

a.funks
+1 BarryW

I’m assuming that the issue here is a mismatch between the spring and damping curves on the fork vs the same on the linkage driven shock. From the numbers I’ve seen comparing fork stiffness, I’m 99% certain that 34 will be bending less then a 36 would under an equally quick average weight male rider.

Reply

Timer
0 Mammal BarryW

Are you sure you are comparing forks at the same travel? I highly doubt that a 140mm 34 would bend less than a hypothetical 140mm 36.

Reply

a.funks
0 BarryW Lee Lau

Absolutely! If you’ve got a 5’2” rider and a 5’10” rider of the same BMI, with the shorter lighter rider on the 34 and the taller heavier rider on the 36, then that 36 will be bending more because it’ll be under about 30% more load.

I struggle to see how a 36 would manage to be 30% stiffer than a 34. Going from 34 to 36 should get you 11% more stiffness and finding another 20% from other changes (stanchion thickness, crown shape and thickness etc) is a tall order.

And plenty of even heavier male riders ride a 36 on similar bikes - I can’t see anyone putting a 38 on the front of a bike like this.

Reply

BarryW
0

This Pete. This. 

It just isn't true that a bike like this needs a bigger fork, it just needs better setup.

And saying: " I just think you need better setup and that's the solution here." is not offensive in any way. Just an interesting observation.

Reply

cooperquinn
+1 Timer IslandLife demo7_rider

30% more load doesn't necessarily equate to "more bending" in a completely different fork. 

Where is "should get you 11% more stiffness" coming from?

Reply

BarryW
0

So how would you interpret it then?

Reply

cooperquinn
0 IslandLife demo7_rider

How would I interpret... what? I'm not sure what you're asking here.

mtbman99
+2 Mammal Curveball

The problem with your theory is that it doesn't need to be 30% stiffer it just needs to be stiffer than what they are currently riding. Each rider will still feel the change in stiffness regardless of the size of person.

I went from a pike, to a lyrik to a 38 in the last few years and with each step up in size I felt a big change and more confidence in my riding as the fork deflected less under me. 

Each person depending on riding style, terrain and weight is going to feel differently about each and every fork as all of those veriables will come into play. Some may find a 38 too stiff and prefer a 34 or 36.

Reply

a.funks
+1 Mammal

That’s a very good point! So maybe it’s more the case that for a given rider on a given type of trails, there is a minimum fork (stiffness, travel, damping) required for them to get the most out of those trails without feeling limited by the fork?

And the challenge with that is some bikes will need “overforking” vs their stock build or the fork limitations could dominate the ride review.

Reply

Kenny
+1 Cooper Quinn

How's that? Stiffness increases with radius by the 4th power

It's 20% stiffer if you keep the wall thickness the same, if you increase wall thickness (keep the inside diameter the same) it's like 50% stiffer.

Stiffness is proportional to mass area of inertia, basically.

Reply

cooperquinn
+1 IslandLife

I, too, would like to know where "11%" came from. Because it seems very made up. And its not just stanchion diameter that matters. Crowns are different, lowers are different, bushing overlap is different bushing SIZE is different, crowns are different...

Reply

kfowler100
+1 BarryW

Thanks for a great review!  If you were shopping for a bike, would you buy this one?  Do you think having the fork tuned could enhance its ride in this situation?  Or is the fork just completely outclassed by the rest of the bike?

Reply

syncro
+1 Andy Eunson

Two questions after reading the comments that I think could apply to this review and others in general.

1. Is this a bike with a better rear end than what it's intended for or a bike with a lesser front end than what it's intended for? If the bike is being over ridden for it's intended purposed then is it fair to criticize the bike for having a ill equipped fork?

2. Is there any chance NSMB is willing to include some trail names when they do reviews? I know this won't help out of town riders, but for locals it will give them a good opportunity to relate the review to trails they may be riding themselves. IE "on my rip down Ned's I felt the front end was getting knocked around more than on my regular ride on the Wonderbasher 5000."

Reply

rigidjunkie
0 mnihiser BarryW

I think the bigger issue at play here is frame manufactures can design a frame to somewhat mask a shock in the rear.  BUT when they do that and do not spend on a nice fork the fork sticks out like a sore thumb.  My main bike has been a base $2,500 Stumpjumper for a couple years.  It came with an XFusion air shock that I have not once thought was holding the bike back.  The RS Silver fork on the other hand was annoying on every ride.  Swapping it for a better fork transformed the bike.  

Knolly is one of those frames I do not see often, but when I see one they look very well built.

Reply

BarryW
+1 Abies ohio James Hayes

This has a Factory level fork, what can you possibly mean by 'do not spend on a nice fork'?

Reply

straightup
0 BarryW Mammal

Soon you’ll all be trying to tell us that 35mm handle bars are the future.

Reply

straightup
0

This comment has been removed.

Bioradler
0

Similar to the old Knolly Warden Carbon geometrywise. 150/160 Travel,  465 reach, 27,5“ wheels.

A comparison between these two would be interesting.

I am riding an warden carbon, but the Endorphin MX option is interesting!

Reply

knollybikes.com
0

Hi Bioradler:

Your comment is very astute and yes, you are 100% correct that in the 27.5" / 27.5" configuration the new Endorphin is essentially a two generations newer version of the original Warden.

Reply

BarryW
-2 bushtrucker Abies Graham Driedger James Hayes Joseph Crabtree Lee Lau

The Fox 34 is a highly regarded fork, I've got one on my bike and while I want to try something beefier, it's never been a limiting factor for me.And I'm 180lbs geared up so it's hard to imagine it being that much of a functional issue compared to a head space thing. 

Also, short travel bike? Isn't this literally right dead centered in the 'trail' category?

And Emma, I understand what your saying about the fork being at its upper travel limit, and the shock being at its lower limit, but why do you assume that makes either perform less than optimally? Either your claim is that Fox is wrong in selling the 34 at 140mm and it should be a 140mm 36, or what are you saying? Like I mentioned above, it is a very well regarded fork in that travel. And that's from reviewers much heavier than you (hell, I'm much heavier than you!). I just think you need better setup and that's the solution here.

Reply

pete@nsmb.com
+3 Graham Driedger Mammal Morgan Heater Timer James Hayes Skooks BarryW jhtopilko ohio

Emma can address what she was getting at with respect to the low-end bracket of the shock and the high end of the fork.

However, for a Shore bike, 135mm is considered the shorter side of intermediate travel. For a shore bike, the 34 is considered an XC fork. The terrain Emma likes to ride most is decidedly not XC. She's not saying the 34 is no good, just that it's a limiting factor for aggressive North Shore riding. Proposing she needs better setup is insulting, presumptuous, and incorrect.

Reply

BarryW
0 Abies ohio James Hayes Mammal

So sorry to suggest Emma is nothing short of an excellent rider, and writer. But it's kind of interesting that the suspension manufacturer says this is the appropriate fork for 140mm of travel. Fox doesn't make a 36 in 140mm travel except for 27.5. So maybe it isn't the fork. Not intending to cast any shade, but literally probably all of us could use some better setup now and then. 

And I'm a northwest Washington rider, so I'm familiar with wet, janky, steep and rugged. (Maybe see some Andrew Major writing on riding the Shore on fully rigid bikes ;-)) and I ride decently hard and literally never have any issues with my 34 (Rhythm even) at 140mm on my 29er. 

Really the issue is why do we find fault for a suspension product that is being used as intended and instead ask for a different travel setting on a bigger product? I think that saying 'this bike would be better with a 150mm fork and therefore a 36' is fine, but you literally cannot get a Fox 36 in that short of travel specced on this bike. And that a size small (nearly x-small) lightweight reviewer is pushing that to its limits seem like a shaky premise. 

But to Emma, I always enjoy your reviews and I will happily read every one coming in the future. So don't let my push back on a couple points upset you. I just had some thoughts I wanted to share/ask. 

No disrespect intended, sorry if you felt any.

Reply

Curveball
+8 Andy Eunson Timer James Hayes Velocipedestrian Mammal Skooks Scott Hanna Lee Lau

Barry, I think the main issue is that the specc'ed fork does not match the feel of the rear end of the bike very well. Not a condemnation of the fork per se, but rather that it hinders what the rear suspension is capable of.

Reply

BarryW
-3 ohio Cr4w Joseph Crabtree Mammal Lee Lau

That's a damping and spring rate issue, it quite literally has nothing to do with the stiffness of the fork chassis. 

How can that relate to the fork diameter?

And I know, it's such a drag to bring facts to light here, lol.

Reply

cooperquinn
+1 Lee Lau

This is the correct take.

Reply

mammal
+6 James Hayes Pete Roggeman Cr4w Curveball IslandLife Lee Lau

"And I'm a northwest Washington rider, so I'm familiar with wet, hanky, steep and rugged. (Maybe see some Andrew Major writing on riding she Shore on fully ridgid bikes ;-)) and I ride decently hard and literally never have any issues with my 34 (Rhythm even) at 140mm on my 29er."

Emma rides hard and fast, on aggressive terrain. With regards to Andrew, he's a good Shore rider, but I'd politely describe his rate of speed as slow-to-moderate (I'm sure he'd agree). Emma quickly found the limits of the 34. As a much heavier rider, if you haven't, that's probably a reflection of the terrain vs. speed equations for the two riders in question.

Reply

BarryW
-3 Mammal Joseph Crabtree Lee Lau

That's a fair point, I just meant that bit about Mr. Major to reflect that you literally don't need any suspension to ride said trails. But you're right about the speed. I meant it as a funny to anyone familiar with the diversity of riders and writers on here. 

But it's simply not true that a hard riding small person puts in as much force into the bike as someone larger. And I'll point to the setup pressures as proof of that. 

I believe there is so much untested placebo in mtb compared to things like auto racing where the dataset is all important. And I willingly acknowledge that I like the human perception of a review, I'm not complaining about that in any way. Just asking if it is perception vs. reality here. And for stanchion stiffness it almost certainly is.

Reply

mtbman99
+5 Cooper Quinn Mammal mutton Pete Roggeman Lee Lau

A smaller harder riding person may not put as much force into any part than someone larger is mostly true but saying that they cannot tell the difference between them is disingenuous. 

If someone rides a 36 on a regular basis and then steps down in size to smaller fork and they feel more deflection/flex it would definitely affect their confidence regardless of the chassis.

Does this make a 34 unacceptable on this bike. For the tester it does and thats the thing about reviews they are subjective and you need to read the review and take from it what applies to you. This is not the deffinitive review of this bike or the 34 this is the reviewers thoughts.

mammal
+1 Lee Lau

"it's simply not true that a hard riding small person puts in as much force into the bike as someone larger." 

I didn't say that (you seem to be putting words in several people's mouths). The reviewer was finding her limits of comfort and control on the 34, while you apparently don't, so my point is that it's likely a difference of needs based on riding style, speed and/or terrain. And if she's very familiar with the current generation 36 (her personal fork), then I trust it's not placebo effect that she feels more comfortable on that fork over a 34.

BarryW
-7 James Hayes Cr4w Joseph Crabtree Curveball Mammal IslandLife Lee Lau

I do hear you on travel Pete, but it's literally a bike built for the Shore by a company that builds bikes for the Shore. And you can't just arbitrarily call it XC at 'The shorter side of intermediate travel' that's literally INTERMEDIATE TRAVEL...

And I suggest you look at the Fox website, they don't list the 34 as an XC option, they call it 'Trail'. Which was my entire point.

Reply

pete@nsmb.com
+9 Matt Cusanelli James Hayes Mammal Velocipedestrian Couch_Surfer Joseph Crabtree Curveball Skooks IslandLife Lee Lau BarryW

Barry, go ahead and read the marketing copy then and let that be your guide. What are we even here for if that's what you want to fall back on? Fox sells forks around the world and in most parts of the world, the terrain is very mellow compared to here. That's why I wrote 'on the North Shore, the 34 is an XC fork'. So when you say you hear me, the truth is you don't - you willfully ignored what I wrote or you just didn't see it. Either way, you didn't hear me.

There are lots of sites out there that will publish reviews more akin to warm handshakes written by people who make the same mistake: read the mktg copy, assume it's appropriate for all riders in all places, and call it a day. It's lazy. 

The question you should be asking is what kind of trails the reviewer is riding on that led them to a conclusion that contradicts your preconceived notions - that would be a fair question. Instead you assume the reviewer - who is in that position because we happen to think she's a capable rider that can evaluate a bike's performance - needs more air in their fork or whatever. You must have missed the opening section in which Emma details the fact that this bike - however capable - may have an identity problem. That's what a reviewer does: ask questions based on the information given and the performance of the product, and draw conclusions. Falling back on what Knolly and Fox claim to be the case and not following through on that and questioning it would be failing to provide any value to the reader. 

You also are clearly assuming she's not fast and/or aggressive. You can pick your way down any terrain on any fork - I learned to ride the shore on an elastomer-damped 65mm POS with noodly little 28mm stanchions - but that doesn't mean it would be 'fine' today, right? Obviously not. The fact that you don't feel like you're pushing your 34 to the limit in PNW terrain just tells me you're not riding that bike in steep, nasty terrain, or you're not doing it very quickly - and there's nothing wrong with that, but that doesn't mean everyone else rides like that, regardless of weight. Your experience does not define someone else's (ain't that a familiar refrain). Would you make those assumptions about racers on the EDR or Canadian Enduro circuits, regardless of their size? This reviewer has raced at that level. She knows what she needs to go fast in nasty terrain. Take her word for it.

Reply

Ride.DMC
+3 mutton IslandLife Lee Lau

I'm certainly heavier than Emma, but I'm probably not as fast or aggressive and I would not want to ride a Fox 34 on the shore.

Reply

BarryW
-2 IslandLife Lee Lau

Specifically why not?

cooperquinn
+4 Curveball Mammal IslandLife Lee Lau

There's lots of great bikes with a Fox 34 that can and should be ridden here. Maybe not *everywhere*, but the same can be said for a Fox 38; its the objectively the wrong choice for a lot of trails. There's no ideal fork for all applications.

BarryW
0

Pete, 

I did hear you, and I believe responded to what you said. I just think that's a regional perspective not an absolute truth. I know you Shore folk tend to consider that nothing else is steep like the Shore, nothing is janky like the Shore, nothing else is rooty like the Shore, but you aren't correct. As a general rule it's fairly true, but not an absolute. 

And in mtb we don't tend to see manufacturers wanting us to all 'underbike' but instead the opposite. So why would a world class suspension company (that is primarily testing with the best riders in the world and all over it) be completely misguided in setting the travel for each size of stanchion? Seems like a flimsy pretense. Based on them saying you don't need 36mm stanchions for 140mm of travel. Because they simply don't make it. (And to your point Graham, sure you can get pure insanity made if you want to pay for it, what actually is your point about that?)

I'm simply saying that if the front and rear of the bike don't feel like they are working together you should probably look at setup, because you can alter the spring rates of both ends, as well as the damping.

Reply

pete@nsmb.com
+3 Curveball Mammal IslandLife mutton BarryW

Good one, Barry! It never occurred to us to examine setup. Imagine how much better all of our reviews will be if we dial in the suspension on those bikes! We'll get right on that next time.

BarryW
+1 noah wilcox

Come on Pete, it isn't like I'm some monster by mentioning that. 

If you really want to get down to brass tacks then did you have the Fox suspension technician out there during the review rides? Did you run telemetry for that setup? Of course not, instead Emma probably did what she regularly does. Not saying it's wrong, but it's a fair guess that very, very few riders are using perfectly optimized settings on their suspension. 

I'm not being pedantic about it, just mentioned that it sounds like setup when the spring feel is very different from the front to the rear.

I don't think I'm making this personal, but it feels like you might be.

skooks
+2 Mammal Lee Lau

"did you have the Fox suspension technician out there during the review rides? Did you run telemetry for that setup? Of course not"

That's what makes this review relevant to me. As you say, "very, very few riders are using perfectly optimized settings on their suspension." I do spend time setting up my suspension. I would like to think I have a good feel for what works and what doesn't, but It's likely that the settings aren't perfect.

A suspension system should provide acceptable performance even if it's not perfectly set up.  For this reviewer and the type of riding she does, the Fox 34 with reasonable settings clearly did not.  She said she would prefer to have a beefier fork and I have no doubt that a 36 would work better for her.  I am not a heavy or particularly fast rider, and I noticed a big performance / stiffness difference just swapping from the previous generation Lyric to the latest model.

Curveball
+6 Mammal mutton Pete Roggeman IslandLife Skooks Lee Lau

Pete, now I'm mad. I'm mad that I can't give you about 50,000 upvotes for your extremely well-reasoned response! I thought the review was fantastic and one of my takeaways was that the frame and suspension had more capability to go fast and hard than the fork was providing.

Reply

skooks
+1 Lee Lau

Great points Pete. It's interesting that the Fugitive, a bike that has clear intentions as a do it all, hard charging trail bike designed for burliier trails than the Endo has similar rear travel but does*not* come specced with a 34.

Reply

knollybikes.com
+2 Skooks IslandLife

Hey Skooks:

To be fair, we spec the Fugitive 123 with a Fox 34 and the Fugitive 138 with a Fox 36.  We just happen to sell more Fugitive 138s than Fugitive 123s.  :)

In terms of spec, it's the same situation with the new Endorphin.

Cheers,

Gdreej
+8 Matt Cusanelli Pete Roggeman Mammal James Hayes mtbman99 Joseph Crabtree Curveball Lee Lau

FYI, Fox can build OEM spec forks with features consumers can't buy. For instance, Deniz tested a Rossignol Mandate Shift eBike with a 150mm travel Fox 38 on it - which certainly isn't available to consumers. Let's not forget that travel numbers are merely a piece of the puzzle, alongside damper performance and chassis stiffness. The difference between a Fox 36 vs. 38 is drastic when feeling confident with line choice. Considering Emma's personal bike has a 36, she's more than qualified in telling readers how she feels that a 34 is under-gunned.

Reply

davetolnai
+3 Curveball IslandLife Lee Lau

I think this is a pretty novel way of looking at this that Emma has hit upon.  There's lots of focus put on the stated intention from the manufacturer.  Looking at the actual functional/design range adds another layer.  When you think about it, it kind of makes sense that there might be some issues with balance when you couple one product at the top end of its expectations with another that is at the bottom of what you would expect from it.

Reply

BarryW
-4 Mammal Joseph Crabtree IslandLife demo7_rider

So that's this perception thing again. 

Why do you believe that a fork at the highest level of its specced travel is incorrect?

Why do you believe a shock at its shortest specced travel is incorrect? 

This is my point, it's like saying that using the largest rotor the manufacturer recommends is 'bad' and the smallest also 'bad' but the one in the middle will be the best. But that's patently absurd. These folks know how to make and spec a fork, what if they are right? 

Emma did not speak to the fork binding, but it being 'pushed off line' but that's not a stiffness issue is it? If it isn't binding in any perceptible way, and it isn't twisting sideways then it's stiff enough right? She also mentions a the Lyric and 36 being 'more capable'. What actually does this mean? They use the same damper, so other than chassis stiffness and travel what is there? 

I'm just pushing back on some of the regular assumptions that are made in so many reviews I read.

Reply

cooperquinn
+1 IslandLife

Why do you believe that a fork at the highest level of its specced travel is incorrect?

Why do you believe a shock at its shortest specced travel is incorrect?

Brake rotors are a poor comparison - they're not subject to the trials and tribulations of bushing overlap. That said, putting 220mm rotors on a Sid is a bad idea, just as putting 160mm rotors on a DH bike is also probably "bad". 

And while I agree with you that saying "more capable" doesn't mean anything without context and parameters, clearly she's referring to descending, where as you note greater travel (and generally chassis stiffness) would be positive attributes.

Reply

BarryW
-2 IslandLife demo7_rider

So there seem to be two claims that are not being correctly separated. 

One is that a 34 at 140mm is not a suitable fork. 

The other is that forks and shocks at the upper or lower ends of their specified travel are 'less good'. 

These are separate issues and I'm treating them separately. I think lumping them in together is only confusing the question.

Reply

davetolnai
+6 Velocipedestrian Cooper Quinn Curveball Skooks IslandLife Lee Lau

I had to look at what I wrote again!  You jammed some pretty spicy words into my mouth.

At no point did I say it was "incorrect".  I said that this was an interesting way to think about it and put it into words, and it made sense to me.  It's not about right or wrong, it's about intention.  A part targeted at a shorter range of travel is going to have different design goals than one targed at a slightly longer range of travel.  They both overlap, sure, but it doesn't seem all that crazy that they're going to come at things with a different perspective.  At some point a bike is only as good as the "weakest" part, and it sometimes becomes obvious when one thing is holding a bike back.  If individual parts don't suit the intention of the bike, they tend to stand out.  This can be different for different people, and it can be different for different bikes.  There could be a bike in this travel class with more of a pedalling/climbing intention where exactly the opposite was true.  Neither right.  Neither wrong.

Reply

BarryW
-3 Joseph Crabtree IslandLife Lee Lau

My point is more about how the is a claim that a fork at the upper end of it's travel is less good than one in the middle of its travel. Same claim about the shock. But why is that the assumption? Why is there the assumption that there is a notable performance loss by using a 34 at 140mm? Would the same hold true of a 34 at 130mm of travel? 

I'm not saying this bike might not be better with a 150mm 36, but the claim of the fork being less good because it's the max travel for a 34 and the shock being less good because it's at the lower end of it's travel is not backed up by any kind of facts. And by the same logic that 150mm 36 would be less good than a 160mm 36. Which also doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Reply

cooperquinn
+4 Velocipedestrian Curveball Blofeld IslandLife

"The Fox 34 is a highly regarded fork"

...sure, so are the 32 Stepcast, and the 40. But that doesn't mean either is going to function well in every application.

If the fork is the limiting factor for a bike in certain terrain, that's a good observation. Fox isn't necessarily wrong selling a 140mm 34, but it could VERY well be that the 34 isn't the correct choice here. And having a bike "under" forked can be pretty disconcerting, considering how important it is to the overall stability and feel of riding any bike - this is at least part of why its so common to "overfork" bikes. It gives significant extra confidence for the fork to be stronger/stiffer/etc than the rest of the bike; people are generally more comfortable with oversteer than understeer, or vague steering feel. 

" I understand what your saying about the fork being at its upper travel limit, and the shock being at its lower limit, but why do you assume that makes either perform less than optimally"

...because bikes are a system, and they all need to work together. Fork/shock, chassis rigidity, wheels, brakes tires... they all need to match. I don't think she's "assuming" anything here - she's ridden the bike for months. 

To use some examples from bikes I've ridden where all this is relevant; the Transition Spur's Sid is a pretty flexy fork. But, given how the rest of the chassis is built to match this, it works. Adding either a bigger fork, or making the frame much stiffer would degrade the bike. This is where the Tallboy in that article fits in - it'd be a poor match for the Sid, as it has a significantly stiffer chassis, wheels, and bigger tires. Another example, my Rocky Mountain Element has a Pike - not necessarily because I want the extra 10mm of travel, but because the overall bike is stiffer, and thus warrants a stiffer fork. 

"I've got one on my bike and while I want to try something beefier, it's never been a limiting factor for me"

Sure...  on a different bike, with a different rider. This statement is... irrelevant, at best. Sure, bigger, heavier riders are able to put bike components under larger forces. But I can tell you, Emma is doing just fine, and her observation makes heaps of sense. 

Also as noted by several others - yes 135mm is relatively short travel around here. (if we want to genretize it, its a Boring Bike)

Reply

BarryW
-5 Mammal Joseph Crabtree IslandLife demo7_rider Lee Lau

So it seems you keep missing my point, which is that as the desired fork literally doesn't exist (a 140mm 36) then what's the claim?

Is the claim that the bike is so poorly designed as to not work? Is the claim that it NEEDS a 150mm fork? Is the claim that Fox NEEDS to make a 140mm 36?

I read what Noel shared and think the negatives on the review might be because it's not meant to be the ultimate enduro race machine and when reviewed like one it seems undergunned. But as someone noted above, it's hard to believe that a rider so much lighter can flex that fork like a 180lbs rider flexes a 36. It just doesn't bear up under scrutiny.

Reply

mwmanuel
+6 mtbman99 Curveball Mammal Joseph Crabtree IslandLife Lee Lau

The reviewer said that the Fox 34 doesn't feel like a stiff enough fork and she would prefer a 36. She didn't say that she wants it specd with a 140mm Fox 36. She didn't mention a travel preference in the front- just the perceived stiffness. She said that the stiffness of the Fox 34 doesn't match the stiffness of the frame, which makes the bike feel unstable. If you've ever ridden a Knolly, they're very burly and stiff frames and it makes perfect sense to me that a 34 would make the bike feel underforked.

Edit to add: I think Fox's decision to not produce an off-the-shelf 140mm 36 can be summed up as a business decision rather than an engineering decision. They're a global company and make global business decisions that aren't based on the specific conditions that we have here on the shore. They do sell 130 and 140mm air shafts for the 36, so it's an easy change to make to the fork.

I suspect the choice of the 140mm 34 on the MX and a stiffer 160mm Z1 on the 27.5" model has more to do with the additional fork length affecting the geometry target (and the 36 not being available in 140) than anything else.

Reply

mtbman99
+5 mwmanuel Curveball Mammal IslandLife Lee Lau

I think if you read the review the tester thinks that a 36 would balance this bike out for them as they felt the 34 had to much flex vs what their personal experience is with a 36. 

Regardless of weight of the rider they are going to feel flex in the fork. Would it be less than someone that is 180lbs riding the same yes. Does that make it a less of a valid point no. 

The claim is this bike would feel better with a stiffer fork than 140mm travel 34. Does that fork exist as an off the shelf component no but it doesn't mean that the observation is invalid. Maybe this gives Fox and Knolly something to think about for future spec as something that could fill a niche that needs to be filled or they leave it as is and customers will decide what they want.

Reply

D_C_
+4 mtbman99 Mammal mutton demo7_rider

A 140 mm 36 very much exists. They make air shafts for travels 130 mm to 170 mm. You might be correct that you can't buy a complete 36 in 140 mm aftermarket, but you can get that by changing the air shaft, and it looks to be available to OEM customers (e.g. Norco Optic).

Reply

Please log in to leave a comment.